thatotherperv: (whore)
[personal profile] thatotherperv
so, as you may or may not be aware, I've been shipping the fuck out of Zach Quinto and Chris Pine lately. like, absurd. stupid, giddy feelings. I don't know if I'd ever use the word otp in this context, because there's a certain degree of *rolls on the ground* they beloooonggg together *weeping* that I don't think you can (reasonably) do with actual individuals. but. shipping the fuck out of them. watching interviews with little hearts popping out of my eyes. grinning goofily at gifsets on tumblr. just. full-on fangirl Feelings. even the name squishing that I normally abhor - pinto. isn't that cute?

somebody slap me.

and it's funny how this has brought to the forefront of my mind a lot of Things that I haven't thought about in years.

the other day, meretrix was reminding me about a time in my life where I was dubious about writing rps *studio laughter* I can't remember a time when I was ever seriously against reading it? I was passively consuming btvs rps as soon as I realized it was a Thing. but at one time in my trip down the garden path of shedding my moral compunctions, producing it seemed like a step I couldn't take.

and then I laid eyes on Jeffrey Dean Morgan and like...promptly forgot about whatever reservations I had. no seriously, forgot about them. even now, I can't tell you exactly what they were. I know I had some kind of moral dilemma that I managed to rearrange in such a way that allowed me to write (seriously increasingly dirty and reprehensible) porn, and ever since then, I've been bored with the whole topic, side-eyeing of tinhattery aside. I can't say I expected it to ever rear its ugly head again.

I think the difference between now and then is that as much as I adored the friendships between the three j's, the fact that all three of them publicly identify as straight made it all...pretend? made it (for *me*) so comfortably in the realm of Clearly Make-Believe that there was nothing to feel guilty *about* (as long as no one brought it up in public, god help us all).

I had never really thought about this. I never really felt the need to make assertions that I believed they were Really Just Good Friends, because it seemed self-evident - given that I'm not crazypants. I never really thought about how that landscape changes if one of the actors is out.

I mean, don't get me wrong, it doesn't change things to the point of making me want to change my behavior - let's not go crazy. this is just me rearranging my prejudices, which in this context are wholly selfish and geared towards my own pleasure. but I do get squickier, more uncomfortable pangs of conscience now than I ever did with spn rps.

especially in regards to any assertion that pinto is "canon." *cringe* I mean, there's always been a certain degree of cringe for me with that, but it's less cringy somehow when the cringe is solely second-hand embarrassment over how delusional the asserter is.

it's exponentially cringier when the assertion feels more...plausible. queer-baity, slash-baity flirtation among male actors is everywhere you look now, but 99% of the reason I ship Quinto and Pine is that the fodder, such as it is, feels like genuine affection and respect. there's a little bit of stunty baitiness, but it's the subtler indicators of fondness that make my heart pitter-pat. my own reaction to this reaction is interesting to me - if they both identified publicly as straight, I wouldn't feel the overwhelming need that I do right now to tack the word "platonic" on here.

I had to actually stop and ask myself if this was some bizarre, latent second-hand no-homo reflex that has heretofore never manifested. but the hesitation has less to do with the fact that Quinto came out than it does with other people's *reaction* to his being out. namely, fangirls who seem to feel that him identifying publicly as gay = 50% achievement of otp, and the media...expectation? suspicion? invasiveness? of any close relationship he has with a costar moving forward.

I think if I'd ever seen Pine be defensive or awkward around the subject, I'd feel differently, but the awkwardness that seems to exist is "being asked repeatedly how I feel about my friend's orientation is growing uncomfortable," which...valid. it makes me feel weirdly protective of their relationship, whatever it is.
I don't *know* what it is, it's (imo) not very self-evident, and I don't have the right to wonder or ask (or even write novel-length meta about it, *bangs head on desk*). I don't want to know. their sentence-finishy exasperated/fond, correcty, gently competitive marriedness is precious and special whether or not they want to bang, and I don't want any discomfort about it coming to them from fangirl actions.

and yet I want ALL TEH PORN, ZOMG. it's probably some special kind of insanity to find the porn perfectly acceptable, but a gifset labelled with "CANON!!!" completely squicky. and there's probably no reconciling it logically.

there is one spot where Quinto's sexuality is the direct source of discomfort: I have a deep, guilty, unabiding love of the straight-boy trope. it's never...*particularly* felt problematic before? when you have fictional characters, you can mix and match sexual orientation and sexual histories and swap the assignments around and - by the transitive properties of Clear Make-Believe described above - that always felt true for rps before now as well. I have a *serious* kink for pinto fic where Zach is gay, Chris is straightish, and things happen, but it also makes me SQUIRM in the bad way because...uncomfortably close to reality, and all kinds of ooky stereotypes being assigned to a real person's real realness.

*whispers* but that's part of what makes it so hot.

so I thought I'd be able to work something out by writing this, but instead I just flopped around in my own hypocrisy for a while. yay? at least I can comfort myself with uberlong pinto porn.

Date: 2013-09-20 08:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
/casually encouraging you to write Pinto fic

I'm sure you've read Captain Spanky, but just in case. :D

Date: 2013-09-20 08:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I'VE THOUGHT ABOUT IT SO HARD. I've thought about how I have yet to find the straightboy trope written from Zach's pov and how I want it like burning and I'm tempted to write it myself.

tbh, if there was an active kinkmeme for that fandom, I probably would've dabbled at it already.

and yes, that fic swallowed my goddamn brain. along with its godzilla of a sequel.

Date: 2013-09-20 08:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
we shall not discuss the sequel... /pulls out hair

::whispers:: write pinto

Date: 2013-09-20 08:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
oh see, I rolled around in the angst of that sequel like a pig in mud. all the aaaaangst

and lol, idk. I've had wicked writer's block lately, so we'll see what I can write and when I can write it

Date: 2013-09-20 08:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
it was so angsty! I ate chocolate cake for a week after in order to recover.

Date: 2013-09-22 10:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
When such a discerning person as yourself goes nutty over something it makes me kinda wanna check it out. And I need fic. BUT.
I just never fancied ZQ (I blame Heroes). There are other Trek people I'd rather see naked. Now pleez to explain how a story entitled "Captain Spanky" is the best thing since sliced Spangel.

Date: 2013-09-24 03:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
here's the thing - I NEVER FANCIED HIM EITHER. I swear to fucking god, I don't know what happened. I was like, eh, he's ok, and I felt the same thing about, they're both objectively attractive-ish, but they never really made me go *oof*, I need that, you know? then I started watching their interviews together and they're MAGICAL, and for a while all I was really interested in was that, and then this thing clicked over in my head where I suddenly find Quinto not only hot but I'm also completely smitten and I literally can't pinpoint what made this take place. so you may want to just float around in it for a while and see what happens, haha

lol Captain Spanky is an epic-length D/s fic with an even more epic-length angst-tastic sequel and it's pretty fucking great - I've gotten lost in it twice now. not as cracky as the title would lead you to believe - in the fic, "Captain Spanky" becomes an in-joke nickname for Pine among the crew

Date: 2013-09-21 12:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I made the mistake of reading Captain Spanky! It was hilarious! I was just like ohhh porn! Wait no RPS! BUT KINKY PORN! So many conflicting feelings.

Date: 2013-09-20 09:28 pm (UTC)
laisserais: kiss (Default)
From: [personal profile] laisserais
ha omg why did you write novel-length meta.

Huh, you know, this is really interesting. And I'm trying to unpack all the different components of it.

I didn't used to feel squeamish about writing 'canon' RPS about J2, but for some reason now I do. I don't know if that change is related to your feelings on Pinto. Maybe?

Something about the level of intrusiveness...I don't know.

But OK, let's tease it apart:

1. The hotness of slash
2. The hotness of written porn vs.
3. The squick of gifs that seem to interpret RL in a particular way
4. People giving away their secret epic love with unconscious tells
5. Reasons why their love is epic and secret
6. Who real people are actually sleeping with
7. things like twitter and the fourth wall - intrusions, prurience
8. 'straight' boys being seduced into teh gay by the sheer hotness of their out gay friends
9. performing masculinity as a straight man and as a gay man in our culture
10. the leeway men have to express affection and friendship toward other men in our culture
11. Um, am I missing anything? lol

Do you reckon it has to do with how much we want boys to be able to show affection to each other? Is that, plus the fact that we can so easily now intrude into a performer's real life with our prurience?

Because you'd think if anything, Quinto being out would defuse some of the hysteria, right?

Date: 2013-09-24 03:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
lol it was totally an accident. I can't believe I wrote this much over an rps dilemma - how 2008.

ugh, I wish our prurience was kept in the dark. to me, fanfiction is basically like the swapping of masturbatory fantasies and since you don't go up to a total stranger and say, "hey, this is what I think of when I jack off to the memory of your face," it's uncomfortable that they, you know. KNOW. that's def where there's a difference to me between rps and fictional slash, because the actor isn't their character (and that has concrete meaning - there are characters that do it for me whose actors do not), so them knowing is slightly less confronting. and for me, Quinto being gay is the most confronting of all because it's like, "not only do I fantasize about you doing things, I fantasize about you doing things you actually do - awkward."

so I guess in a way it is sort of like your discomfort about canony rps? it has to do with the degree of verisimilitude, anyway, though the degree that you're probably thinking of is still on the safe side of the line for me.

and yes, I think that was a comprehensive list, haha.

Date: 2013-09-24 04:18 pm (UTC)
laisserais: kiss (Default)
From: [personal profile] laisserais
ha I like how I just crapped out in my comment. I think I got bored and wandered away or something.

Oh yeah, that's a good point. It's how close to 'real' are we getting. Because totally, it's very rarely that I appreciate people telling me what I'm doing in their fantasies. I'd say, like two out of every ten times I hear about it. :p

Date: 2013-09-20 09:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I've always loved RPF(S), but I feel weird reading/writing it when it is actually POSSIBLE that it's true. Stuff that's clearly fantasy is squick-free for me.

Date: 2013-09-24 03:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
yeah. I don't think any of this weirdness is going to stop me from reading (or even maybe writing *slinks*) this ship, but I'm just going to feel vaguely dirty while doing it. heh.

Date: 2013-09-20 10:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I find I can do ok with rps if I think of them as characters. And it's all about the fantasy. I can see a J2 gif of a convention where they look at each other with lovey eyes, and squee about it with others. Do I think they go off-stage and give each other frantic handjobs before the photo-ops? No. But I would read the hell out of that fic. If someone mentioned it to them in real life, holy hell, I would bury my head in the sand and die. Because it's not actually about them. It's about the pretend them I keep in my head.

Date: 2013-09-24 03:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
yeah see that's how I've ALWAYS seen it. it's not them, it's a caricature of them. like, a little Jensen doll that with posable limbs and anatomically correct genitalia that I can play with. lol. but this is kind of fucking with my brain right now. it'll probably pass, because I like the ship too much to give it up, so...cognitive dissonance has a way of resolving itself. still, for now, it's fucking with my worldview

Date: 2013-09-24 03:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Where can I get that Jensen doll?!?

It was a slow process for me to be able to read rpf, truthfully. At first I was like, No Way. Then, I read an AU, which is ok, because it's not really them. I stuck to AU for a long time, and then I read one non-AU squinting through my fingers, and that was it, I lost all pretenses.

However, after seeing the second new Star Trek movie (I remember actually looking around in the movie theater, like 'does no one else see how gay this is??), I pretty much came home and starting googling. I watched the interview mash-up that shows them being impressed with each other's big word usage, and I was like, OK, THAT'S ENOUGH, GIVE ME THE FIC. I lack shame.

Date: 2013-09-24 03:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
*snickers* zactly

Date: 2013-09-21 05:00 am (UTC)
vikingprincess: Big girl panties?  I'm putting on my ass-kicker boots and going commando! (Default)
From: [personal profile] vikingprincess
You know, I've gleefully consumed your SpN RPF, but never thought of it as truly REAL. It's fantasy, which is part of what makes it fun, because yay, sexy imagination times with pretty men, right?

But I think I could have gone a while without knowing of pinto (despite the undeniable cuteness of the name mashup). I think the realm of it being actually possible, even if not necessary plausible (and now I kind of can't stop thinking about it, damn you!), makes it feel more like a case of "dance, puppet, dance!"

Is that weird?

Date: 2013-09-24 03:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
yes! it's the "dance, puppet, dance!" effect, that's exactly how it feels.

not that I'm going to stop watching people make them dance. *bangs head against wall*

Date: 2013-09-21 05:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
As a long time Pinto fan, I'd like to throw in my two cents, if I may (from my phone, because something us WRONG with me >.<so formatting will likely be all over the place. Sorry for that.) A to "cannon" I think the MAJORITY of fans (because ever fandom has its crazies) say it with as much seriousness about rps a they do about purely fictional characters. Pinto is no more "cannon" than say Wincest, but when the across spend thirty seconds smiling dopily at each other in an interview, its like everdopilyy scene where Sam and Dean manfully refuse to weep on each others shoulders then do it anyway five minutes later. I would be in NO way surprised to hear that Zach and Chris have had sex in real life actually kinda believe they have even. In an, "I'm gay, you're hot and maybe open to trying anything once. Can I blow you?" Kind of way. (let me clarify, I was actually dubious that this ever happens *trust me, I've tried to no avail* until my own BROTHER told me he once bottomed for his friend because I quote "I was curious? Why not? It wasn't half bad.") My personal speculations aside, whether they have had sex in real life or not is completely irrelevant and none of my business. Doesn't mean I can't or won't fantasize about it. I hope enough of that made sense to help exonerate the fandom a little bit without just making myself sound like a crazy person?

Date: 2013-09-24 03:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
oh, I do believe that the majority of fans take it as total fantasy with no relation to reality - I've been around long enough to have faith that 82% of fangirls have at least a passing acquaintance with reality. I hope it didn't come off as me attacking the fandom - this is just me trying to wrap my head around my own misgivings, really. I get where you're coming from.

I was actually dubious that this ever happens *trust me, I've tried to no avail* until my own BROTHER told me he once bottomed for his friend because I quote "I was curious? Why not? It wasn't half bad."
AH-HAHAHAHA you just made my day. I'm cackling. that's awesome.

Date: 2013-09-24 05:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I nearly made my brother drop his smoothie when he told me; I cackled too XP quite loudly, in a high-ceilinged room, it echoed. 8D

PS. I'd love to hang out sometime, pick your brain about kink and what-not. Additionally, I just love your work and would like to get to know the author behind the sexiness XP What's your preferred IM system? I'm chibinecco most everywhere except YIM, which for some reason wanted me to be chibinecco1 because reasons... >.

Date: 2013-09-25 01:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I don't really do IM these days, but I'm always happy to do a long string of emails :) I'll send PM you my address since the only active account I have right now has my real name
(deleted comment)

Date: 2013-09-24 03:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
lol yeah, see that's the gateway thought. come over to the dark side :)

You're a whore but I love you anyway

Date: 2013-09-22 10:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
lmao. You are so funny. And Pinto is clearly the neatest and corniest name mash ever (well ok, there's Filbert... which if you turn it around becomes Cock, so that's a contender).

I'm a whore too. But we're the good kind! Right?

Re: You're a whore but I love you anyway

Date: 2013-09-24 03:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I can't tell you how amusing it is to get a notification email wth the subject line "You're whore but I love you anyway." lmfao.

but we're totally the good kind :)

Re: You're a whore but I love you anyway

Date: 2013-09-24 09:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Well, that *is* what it says on the label icon, lol! I guess I should be glad it didn't get thrown in the trash with the "extra large penis" and "sexy women love you long time"-emails...
I guess I'll have a look at that Captain Spanky story at some point. Not that I'm even into spanking, but the promise of good hard angst will lure me in like a dummy every time.

Re: You're a whore but I love you anyway

Date: 2013-09-24 09:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
oh, the angst is so good and hardcore, though I don't think the angst REALLY starts to kick in until like, word 50,000 of 200,000, haha. so it's maybe a commitment. if it helps, the spanking is just the trigger to their relationship, the kink gets a lot harder from there

Date: 2013-09-22 08:59 pm (UTC)
christycorr: Janet (Rocky Horror Picture Show) (Holy shit!)
From: [personal profile] christycorr
Zachary Quinto/Chris Pine is the ship that made me fall for RPS, hard—and I've never looked back, but no other RPS ship has got to me quite like they did. I don't have any problem with RPS per se (it used to squick me many years ago, but it's been a long time). But they were so adorable! On so many levels! And that portmanteau, oh man, I adore it with all my heart even though I despise portmanteaux in general, because 'pinto' is a slang word for 'dick' in my native language, and just. THE HILARITY, I CANNOT DEAL WITH IT.

Hmm, very interesting, your discomfort re: the straight trope (which I also love). I'm just very happy in la-la-fantasy-land, but I do get where you're coming from. Hmm. *wanders off thinking*

Date: 2013-09-24 03:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
bwahahahaha that's awesome. that makes it perfect, even though yeah I usually hate the mashups too.

oh god, they're SO adorable. like, I'm in that first stage of fangirling something where you just want to roll around on the ground in agony over how adorable they are. I'm like, clawing my eyes out. THE AGONY OF PERFECTION.

I'm sure my cognitive dissonance will resolve itself in favor of porn (because I am one giant throbbing id) and that I'll gleefully throw off the discomfort I'm feeling right now. I'm just still working on it.

stoopid super-ego.


thatotherperv: (Default)

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